Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Everyone loves hearing a good story. Maybe that's why audio storytelling has become such a big thing. So many people have picked up the microphone to share their voices, opinions, and experiences with a wider audience. But it's more than just personal expression. Podcasting connects people, and it can work as a bridge for groups that are underserved by traditional media.
I'm Kelsey Arnett and you're listening to the Community Podcast Initiative. The goal of the CPI is to produce and promote podcasting as a way to amplify underrepresented voices through audio storytelling. This initiative is based out of Mount Royal University, which is located on Treaty Seven territory. The CPI is powered by Shaw.
In this episode, we dive into the ethics of podcasting. Earlier this year, CPI Co Director Brad Clark was part of a panel discussion with media instructors from across North America at the annual Broadcast Education Association conference in Las Vegas. Brad recorded the discussion with a view to share it with CPI listeners. The panel considered a range of issues, everything from the responsibility of podcast hosts to provide truthful information to using other people's work in your show. The discussion begins with the panelists introducing themselves.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: Thank you for coming and says, Podcasting ethics is it journalism, entertainment, or something else? This is going to be just sort of a conversation, free flowing conversation. We have some prompts. Some things that we all teach in podcasting have come across in our classes and what we think students should be doing, so we'll be talking about that. So I'm Ben Bogartis from Quinpiac University. I'm a journalism professor there. I teach the podcasting course in addition to television, newscast, producing, reporting, and basically all things broadcast. And I've been teaching the podcasting course since 2016, and I also teach the Journalism Ethics Senior seminar there. So this is also sort of where the idea for this panel came about. I'll talk more about that in a minute, but go down the line, I guess.
[00:02:42] Speaker C: Hi, everybody. Good morning.
Francisco Suarez from Sunnius Figo, assistant professor of the Communication Studies department. And I teach podcasting. I have my own podcast, and it's a pleasure to be here, actually, and to discuss a very important topic right in these crazy times of podcasting everywhere.
[00:03:02] Speaker D: Hi, I'm Lindsay Cheryl. I am an Assistant Professor of Business Communication at the University of North Alabama, and most of my research has to do with podcasting, both from an industry standpoint and from a journalism studies and ethics standpoint.
[00:03:17] Speaker E: Hi, I'm Dednis Conway from Valdosto State in Georgia. I teach podcasting in my announcing class and media capstone.
[00:03:26] Speaker F: Hi, I'm Brad Clark. I'm from Mount Royal University in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. And I too, like many of us on the panel, teach both ethics and a class in podcasting. And I've just been a real fan of audio most of my professional life. I'm a former CBC radio journalist and just really love the craft of podcasting and audio generally.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: All right, great. So why is this important, this topic? I mean, obviously ethics always, you know, it also comes down to podcasting is sort of a gray area. It's not truly journalism. It obviously had its origins in radio that evolved from that, but it's also entertainment, it's also public relations at times. So given that what ethical standards should apply? Should there be one set of standards or should be multiple standards depending on the type of show? And also, most podcasts, especially those created by students, are homemade. They don't have a corporate or professional standards. They don't have producers, executive producers, news directors looking over their work. So how can we teach students to do things correctly from the start? And as I said, I teach the journals of ethics seminar and podcasting. And these sort of combined last year, last spring, when the Joe Rogan problem came along, where he was heavily criticized for bringing on some COVID skeptics onto his show and presenting their views unsceptically. And when I obviously talked about my journals and methods class, and then in my podcasting class, I was asking the students, what podcast do you listen to and why? And one of the students quotes, I learn more in a three minute Joe Rogan clip on YouTube than I do an entire day at again, they are they the students. The public is using podcasts as a source of information. So it sort of becomes incumbent upon podcasters to make sure that the information they put out is something which is ethically correct. So that leads into the first conversation topic. I wanted to talk about it's. What responsibilities do podcast hosts and producers have to their audience? Are they de facto journalists who have an ethical obligation for truthfulness and sharing, or at least respecting both sides of an issue and at the very least not bring conspiracy theories onto their shows? So how do we make sure that journalists or podcasters follow a sort of ethical guidelines similar to journalism when they're talking about news issues?
[00:05:58] Speaker E: I would say that our students should have some quality sources for the information they're passing out.
I don't know exactly how they would measure that. What they might think is quality source may not meet my standards, but let's see what others think.
[00:06:15] Speaker F: I think, as with ethics generally, it can depend a little bit. I think it depends on who you are and what your background is, what your affiliation is. For students, I think it's valuable to discuss it and be talking about it before they enter the field. Professionally, there isn't really a standard for podcasting the way there are for other influencers, for example, or other media creators. Certainly if you have a journalism background, I think you are beholden to some of the ethics that you typically adhere to, given your affiliation with your organization, with the professional associations you're involved with. I think I think there should be a commitment to truth and accuracy in any production. I think there should be a commitment to public service. We want to minimize harm. We want to make sure that in our messaging we aren't creating harm. And if people are trading in misinformation or disinformation, I think there's a potential for that.
I think those are a couple of places where I would start the discussion with students related to ethics and podcasting.
[00:07:34] Speaker D: I would add to that most of my research has to do with true crime podcasting. And so in true crime you find kind of these two areas where one side is very strictly journalism and it's very clear that it's journalism and others that are just kind of people talking. And I think one of the first places to start that discussion is about being very clear about what kind of podcast you're making because I think audiences are fairly savvy to it. If you make that somewhat clear at the beginning that this is journalism and then if you are making journalism, then you have to talk about what those ethics mean. And if it's a topic like true crime, you're not only dealing with getting the facts right, presenting accurate information, but you're also dealing with that you are trading in the worst things that ever happened to people. And you have to be sensitive to victims, to family members, to everyone who's been affected by those stories. And that has to undergird everything in your storytelling for those type of topics.
[00:08:34] Speaker C: I would say for me, again, the beauty of digitalization is the fact that podcasting is a new mass media. It's a way that we communicate, right?
Do you have responsibility every time that you are in front of a mic? Yes, you do. Doesn't matter if you are a student, doesn't matter if you are a podcaster with years or experience what you're going to say matter. And the truth is that only those podcasts who has certain value of ethic and be sure that you do your research and that you really are in tune with what you are saying are those the ones who survive is a lot of noise out there.
[00:09:17] Speaker D: A lot.
[00:09:18] Speaker C: So in order for you students or faculty to really be the discipline, to understand that that power to be in front of a mic is important, it doesn't matter what you're going to be talking about, who are you going to be talking about, you have to do your research. You have to know that what you are saying matter and podcasts have become not necessarily about quantity, it's about quality, right? It's not about having this huge audience. It's true that certain podcasts that have thousands of millions of audience, it's about the quality of your audience is the people who are going to come to you every time because they know what you're putting out there have ethic, value that you do your work. I think that for me is what I try to teach my students is that you have a responsibility every time that you are in front of a mic. And yes, it's very easy to spend half an hour talking and chitchatting about things. But the point is that even if something has football or baseball or your podcast, you have to do your research, you have to understand what you'd be talking about in order for the audience to really identify, this is somebody who knows what he's talking about. I will go back. So the answer for me is, it doesn't matter what type of podcast, you have a responsibility of ethic to your audience. And not only that, that's a trick to actually be a successful podcast.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think I come across that too. It's not something the students maybe consciously put out wrong information or disinformation. They just don't realize the reach of the podcast. And like you said, if anyone in front of a microphone, you have a responsibility to your audience. And it's really something that the students should be thinking about from day one.
[00:10:59] Speaker E: In the previous panel in this room, they talked about how the audience has to trust the podcaster. I thought that was a good word. I think that's why people tune in, they trust the person it's speaking.
[00:11:13] Speaker B: So the next ethical topic that I come across a lot is I let the students choose their own podcast topics in my class. I think we all do to some extent, but then it sort of inevitably becomes about them. Their friends, groups they're affiliated with, they interview people that, from a journalistic standpoint, ethically, you would not interview friends and family, put them in your show, necessarily. So is this a conflict? Is this something that you can in podcasting, sort of get away with just because of the more intimate nature of it and you can do full disclosures? Or is this something we should encourage students to cover general interest topics to avoid problems like this?
[00:11:55] Speaker C: It's a good question.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Thank you. So I asked it.
[00:11:59] Speaker F: Sometimes I think my students think a podcast is sitting around a bunch of microphones and talking to each other.
I do struggle with this. In our law and ethics classes, we talk about the issues in the potential conflict of interest. When you're interviewing people you know, or family or friends with podcasting, it often is a bit of a trade off with that intimacy. And I think there's lots of great podcasts out there where it's not uncommon for the journalist or the host to interview close people and close friends.
And it's been really successful at the very least. I think you have to be incredibly transparent about it. I once had a student who had proposed a radio documentary to me, and the one she submitted was much different, but throughout the piece, she never mentioned the last name of the person involved in the documentary. It was a country in country and western music artist and that's because the center of her piece had the same last name that she did and she didn't want me to find out.
That kind of lack of transparency is really problematic.
But at the same time, I think you can tell good stories if you're upfront about it.
In my ethics discussions with students, especially student journalists, I say transparency isn't a get out of jail free card.
It has to be used judiciously and at the very least, as they say, you got to tell people what the relationship is.
I also think it can be really fraught as well.
Interviewing family and friends can really come back to haunt you in a way that you might not anticipate going in. It may seem easy, but when people hear what you've put together, I think it's another consideration to put in front of students as well.
[00:14:13] Speaker D: I like that you use the word intimacy because that is something that's different with podcasting and it's something that students have to be aware of that when you create a podcast, if people like it, they develop very strong parasocial relationships with podcasters and that is different than print journalism or watching someone on television. And I think that that intimacy can get a little even more fraught when you do bring in those close relationships. Again, I think it is a transparency issue.
I think back to some of the podcasts that I've loved the most and a lot of them were the ones where there was a personal connection to a story where someone said, I had to cover this because I couldn't stop thinking about it. When I think about what led me to even getting into podcasting, it's because of a story I covered at a newspaper 20 years ago that I can't stop thinking about and it led me kind of down this rabbit hole.
So again, you got to be careful, got to be transparent. And if you are interviewing or using someone that you have that close personal relationship with, make sure it's not the only viewpoint that you are bringing in another side of that someone else to back those up and to push back a little bit.
[00:15:26] Speaker C: And I think for me, I love what you just say about you were the need to tell the story. I think good podcasting is about that need to tell a story. We all have a need to tell a story, whatever that story is. But the idea of if that need doesn't exist for me, just creating something that doesn't have the depthness that you need. But talking about the podcasting and yes, that's the whole beauty of podcasting is it very informal, it's a more intimate process, but it's very important that you don't forget. For me, the three columns are extremely important. You are there to inform, to educate, and why not to entertain. So if you don't find a balance between those three things, for me, the podcast lose value you cannot be only an entertainer in the sense of not having some kind of depthness in what you're talking about. You can bring your friends, you can be your family, but you always need to have another point of view of what you're talking about.
[00:16:31] Speaker D: I think we've had some examples of really high profile podcasts where the host got way too close, and it really did affect the quality. One of the biggest ones I can think of is the first episode of the up and Danish podcast with Payne Lindsay started. It was a murder in his hometown. His grandmother was involved. He talked to his sweet grandmother on podcast. It was real cute. But then it became so much about his personal connections that the ethics completely went off the rails, and it got kind of ugly towards the end of that podcast. Another example was the Murdoch Murderous podcast a couple of years ago. Mandy Matney was the journalist covering that one, and it started pretty good, and then again, it became very, very personal.
A lot of the comments on the podcast, a lot of the discussion online about it, kept going back to her fiance doing all her ads and talking about how she would be like, and now my brilliant fiance. And it was too much, and it cut so much of that credibility.
[00:17:34] Speaker E: I had some students who did a podcast called Dating Advice for Students. I know that sounds pretty dangerous, and they might get very autobiographical and possibly graphic or, I don't know, reveal some stuff about friends and family, but it was in really good taste, I think. These kids had been in therapy a lot, and they were almost doing it as if they were a therapist. And they gave good advice, like, if you're a freshman in college, don't date. Find a good circle of friends, try to be successful in your work, your studies, and try to get comfortable. So it seemed like a dangerous spot, but they did very well. So sometimes things work out.
[00:18:19] Speaker F: I think sometimes too, maybe something related to dating, the stakes aren't all that high.
Maybe that can be a bit of a dangerous game too. But there are some topics that are clearly where different points of view aren't going to be so controversial and so challenging.
What's happening in your fantasy pool maybe isn't so grievous that you need to worry about not talking to your buddies about that, if that's a format.
And of course, you've got a real spectrum of where that might land. But I think especially if your rationale for doing a podcast is your background in journalism in that instance, I think you have a higher threshold for addressing things from a journalism ethics point of view than people who have come to podcasting from other fields.
I still think that it would be really useful to have as. I think we sort of started out with some kind of notional code for all podcasters to consider the way TikTok influencers do, for example.
You have to be very clear.
If you're being paid to promote something on a lot of social media, you need to do that.
I haven't encountered or seen a lot of that in podcasting. There is some of it, but I just think broadly we could maybe as an area of media creativity, come up with some guidelines like everybody else has that related to the field, whether you're filmmakers or broadcast journalists or whatever.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: So this actually sort of deals with the research of one of our panels directly. But the idea of original research versus taking someone else's work and talking about it, especially in true crime. So where do we draw the line between conducting original research and reporting and podcasts and talking about other people's work? So true crime especially often just doesn't fact check, doesn't look at other sources, doesn't do their own original research. So how can this be considered ethical?
You want to start with that? I took a big breath there.
[00:21:12] Speaker C: I'm thinking, I think for what I recommend to my students were and especially talking about true crime podcasts, when you're using the work of somebody else, the least that you can do as an ethical thing is to actually try to contact that person and say, I'm going to be using some of your material in my podcast. Not only is ethically correct, but it's also allow you to really create a networking with that person. And that person also could say sure, and actually tag me in and be sure that you put my tag, my Instagram account. I think when you really are basing an episode of a podcast with a heavy weight on somebody else work, the least that you should do is to contact that person. That is one of the things that I recommend. It's not always easy to contact the person to get the permission to the person to use it, but at least.
[00:22:08] Speaker D: You should try acknowledging sources up front. Should be a minimum. Absolutely. I've seen quite a few podcasts that I think do a pretty good job who upfront, will mention their sources. They will say, these are the ones that we actually interviewed and talked to versus these are the ones that we read or found elsewhere. And then they'll have an accompanying web page or a description that actually links to everything. So that if you're interested as a listener, you can do a little of that fact checking yourself. I think that's a bare minimum with this. Of course, a lot of podcasters are also amateurs and so if you start talking about doing your own investigations, that's a whole other minefield as well, especially if you're talking true crime and ongoing investigations. There have been some pretty ugly examples of podcasters getting it over their head there too. Again, not having that journalism training. So if they're interested in that, we've got to cover the journalism up front.
[00:23:07] Speaker C: And I think it is our responsibility as a professor, if you're teaching podcasting, is to teach those values. Meaning just because you have a mic in front of you, that doesn't mean give you the right to talk whatever you want or without having a process of real research and pre production of your show. That is where you create quality and that's where people is going to start following you. So yes, it is not only just sit down in a table and turn on a mic and speak, it's about month of process to really record one episode. That is how it should be.
Having that conscious mind that this is not about me talking about a specific crime or sports or entertainment is do I do my research? Again, we go back to the responsibility of really knowing what you're talking about. Do I want to interview somebody? Is that person the right person to interview for this episode? I mean it's a whole process. So I think it is important to let students always know that yes, you can be a podcaster, you can have a great voice, you can be super funny and fun in the mic, but you have to put the work, which is that each episode need to be well produced and that means a lot of pre production before you record.
[00:24:20] Speaker D: And recognizing again that parasocial point that even regardless of the quality of what you actually put out, certain people are going to think of you as an expert just for the fact that they are hearing your voice and that is a huge amount of responsibility.
[00:24:35] Speaker E: True, I agree with all of that. Use inform quality sources.
[00:24:40] Speaker F: There's been some interesting sort of more true crime podcasts that have come out in the last while that have kind of had come from more of a journalistic tradition.
I think the journalists have tried to walk the line a little bit and one example would be The Dead End which was about the death of powerful politician in New Jersey. That was done by WNYC journalist Nancy Solomon, and she was actually on an episode of On The Media talking about her challenges in putting that together. And she referenced the term red herring, which apparently I don't listen to a lot of true crime podcasts, but where you may, as a storyteller, take people down a certain direction when you know that's going to prove to be a red herring or a dead end.
I listened to that series and I thought it was pretty well handled and really interesting and informative. Also really balanced against the sensationalism of a difficult case as well. But I don't know how many people have listened to The Coldest Case in Laramie serial's latest one and I'm not convinced that that one did navigated the ethics of that quite as well. In some respects I kind of felt like there were some directions and surprises that you didn't really get till towards the end of the series. I don't want to go into detail. In case you haven't listened to it, I don't want to spoil it.
But in any case, I think that's different from some of the other true crime podcasts. But I think, again, if you've got your foot in the world of journalism, I think that's where you need to start thinking about how you're going to produce your podcast. And I think that's important for students to consider. If they're looking at podcasting, where are they going to come at their podcast from?
[00:26:49] Speaker D: One of the techniques that made me think of when you mentioned serial, that I personally really love as a former journalist, when I listen to podcasts, is the journalists who actually talk about doing journalism throughout the podcast. It was one of the things that was so successful in cereal. For all the many fraught things, I could talk about problems with cereal all day. But one of the things that they did is there was so much transparency around the process. What was the reporter thinking at the time? How did they go look for this clue, what rabbit trails did they go down? And that transparency. Not only was it interesting storytelling, it also kind of helped you see how they got from A to B. And I love that as a technique.
[00:27:32] Speaker F: Yeah, and I think we've seen that quite a bit in the last five years in journalism generally, more of that exposing audiences to the backstage. And it's part of transparency and I think it's really valuable. And it also made for some fantastic satire when on Saturday Night Live they spoofed cereal with the Christmas episode, which was just brilliant. Sarah Keenig discussing how this magical elf supposedly shows up every Christmas Eve. It's a really great take.
[00:28:06] Speaker C: And I think when we talk about experience with the students, it's problematic. It's problematic for everybody, because I think when they're doing the research, the Internet is so full of many different not true facts. So the problem is that I go to an example. Some of my students were doing a podcast, they were interviewing this kind of celebrity in football and they went and they took basically the first thing that they found, the Internet, that he was born, let's say, in Jamaica. And when they were doing the interview, he said, I wasn't born in Jamaica, or it was like three or four things that they say that he has to correct them and say that's not an actual fact. Like, I don't play that position, I play this position. So that is an issue. It's a problem, because, again, you cannot go and just click Google one person and take the first thing that is there, because that's not necessarily true, unfortunately. Right. It should be, but it's not. So it is very important that you double check the facts that you're going to be using during your podcast.
[00:29:25] Speaker A: That was a discussion of podcast ethics from the Broadcast Education Association conference in Las Vegas featuring Ben Bogartis from Quinpiac University, Lindsay Sherrill from the University of North Alabama, Francisco Suarez from State University of New York, Oswego Dennis Conway of Valdosta State University and CPI Co Director Brad Clark. The Community Podcast Initiative at Mount Rural University focuses on audio storytelling as a way to better include underrepresented voices. The CPI is powered by Shaw. You can learn more and listen to all our shows at thepodcaststudio CA or find us on social media at communitypodyc.
